John Piper titled this sermon Manhood and Womanhood Before Sin. In the beginning of this sermon he said,
"The other reason I think this is a good question (i.e., God's
intention for manhood and womanhood before sin) is that in the New
Testament Jesus and Paul, when they use the Old Testament to answer
questions about how man and woman should relate to each other, go
back to what things were supposed to be like before the fall. They
don't take the messed up relationships of Genesis 3 and make them
normative. They come back to Genesis 2 and talk about how it should
have been from the beginning."
He makes a valid point that both Paul and Jesus refer back to Genesis 2:24 when speaking of marriage. The rest of the sermon focuses on events that occurred after sin, which according to his own statement this messed up relationship of Genesis 3 should not be taken as normative. This means that his entire argument hinges on what we have explored in the last two posts- man was made first (maybe) and God only gave his instructions to man (probably not.) Even though there is nothing *in the text* to indicate that either of these statements, if they are even true, have any significance to the intended relationship between man and woman, this is what complementarians use as their foundation for "biblical" marriage roles.
The Man is Interrogated First
Piper says:
"Make no mistake: God does hold the woman accountable for her
actions. She is a personal, morally accountable being in the very
image of God. And what man does or fails to do relieves her of no
personal, individual responsibility to know and to obey God. But in
their relationship to each other God looks to the man and says,
"Have you been the moral and spiritual leader you ought to have
been?"
Is that what God said?
In Genesis 3:9-11 God asks some pretty straight forward questions:
Where are you?
Who told you that you are naked?
Did you eat of the tree that I commanded you not to?
Basic, clear, personal questions. No hint of anything about leadership or any responsibility for Eve's actions.
Why did God talk to Adam first? I don't know, because it doesn't say!. Maybe he flipped a cosmic coin.
Does it matter who God spoke to first? I think if it did, he would say so.
Let's assume for a minute that Piper is correct and the order in which God spoke to Adam and Eve has some meaning.
God goes on to deliver the serpent's consequences before Eve's and Eve's before Adam's.
God continues to show no discernible pattern throughout the Bible, and here is one example:
In Luke 1:27 an angel comes to Mary to tell her that she will give birth to Jesus.
In Mathew 1:18-1:20 an angel tells Joseph about the baby, after Mary is already pregnant.
Showing posts with label sin. Show all posts
Showing posts with label sin. Show all posts
Saturday, October 29, 2011
Manhood and Womanhood Before Sin Part 2
The Man is Given the Moral Pattern
In this sectioin, Piper claims that Adam was given the instructions for how to behave in the garden (Genesis 2:16), because he had a "primary responsiblity" for their actions. He says that God trusted Adam to pass these instructions on to Eve.
In my last post, I raised the strong possibility that Adam was a man/woman being that was separated into man and woman distinctly in Chapter 3. If this is true, than God did, in fact, give both man and woman the instructions in verse 16. Let's assume for the sake of argument that God only gave these instructions to Adam and that Eve was created after that. Does this have significance?
Piper claims that this indicated Adam's "primary responsibility (not the only, but the primary responsibility) to receive and teach and be accountable for the moral pattern of life in the garden of Eden."
What does that mean? Really? In practical terms? Some patriarchs believe this and take it to an interesting extreme. They go so far as to believe that as long as a woman obeys her husband, she is off the hook with God for anything they do, because it is *entirely* the man's responsibility to make wise decisions. Obviously, this is not true, as we see later that Eve bore consequences as well as Adam. Complementarians see this logic and try to find a middle ground- Adam is only *mostly* responsible. But what does that mean? If someone has a good (or any) argument from a complementarian source on this I would love to see it, because I have yet to find one. I have seen multiple proof-texted arguments that attempt to show that Adam *does* bear most of the responsibility, but none that show what that means in practical terms. If Adam bears 51% of the responsibility and Eve bears 49%, is she 2% less dead than him at the end of the day?
Romans 6:23
"For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
So, did God tell Eve the instructions?
I believe he did, whether they were formed at the same time or not.
Genesis 3:8
"And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day:"
I'm just speculating here, because the text doesn't actually say, but do you think this was a new occurrence? Do you think God just happened to show up that day after leaving them alone since the day of creation? Or maybe this was a regular thing, for him to walk and talk with Adam and Eve. I don't imagine that the one sentence of instruction was all he told them either. They both got to WALK and TALK with God, getting to know his character, and learning his instructions for life.
But the text doesn't actually say, so let's look at the rest of the Bible. Who does God speak to when he gives his instructions.
Exodus 6:6
Exodus 14:2
Exodus 27:20
Exodus 30:21
These are just a few of the examples of God speaking to "the children of Israel." He didn't call the men together and speak to them so they could tell their wives. He spoke to everyone.
In this sectioin, Piper claims that Adam was given the instructions for how to behave in the garden (Genesis 2:16), because he had a "primary responsiblity" for their actions. He says that God trusted Adam to pass these instructions on to Eve.
In my last post, I raised the strong possibility that Adam was a man/woman being that was separated into man and woman distinctly in Chapter 3. If this is true, than God did, in fact, give both man and woman the instructions in verse 16. Let's assume for the sake of argument that God only gave these instructions to Adam and that Eve was created after that. Does this have significance?
Piper claims that this indicated Adam's "primary responsibility (not the only, but the primary responsibility) to receive and teach and be accountable for the moral pattern of life in the garden of Eden."
What does that mean? Really? In practical terms? Some patriarchs believe this and take it to an interesting extreme. They go so far as to believe that as long as a woman obeys her husband, she is off the hook with God for anything they do, because it is *entirely* the man's responsibility to make wise decisions. Obviously, this is not true, as we see later that Eve bore consequences as well as Adam. Complementarians see this logic and try to find a middle ground- Adam is only *mostly* responsible. But what does that mean? If someone has a good (or any) argument from a complementarian source on this I would love to see it, because I have yet to find one. I have seen multiple proof-texted arguments that attempt to show that Adam *does* bear most of the responsibility, but none that show what that means in practical terms. If Adam bears 51% of the responsibility and Eve bears 49%, is she 2% less dead than him at the end of the day?
Romans 6:23
"For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
So, did God tell Eve the instructions?
I believe he did, whether they were formed at the same time or not.
Genesis 3:8
"And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day:"
I'm just speculating here, because the text doesn't actually say, but do you think this was a new occurrence? Do you think God just happened to show up that day after leaving them alone since the day of creation? Or maybe this was a regular thing, for him to walk and talk with Adam and Eve. I don't imagine that the one sentence of instruction was all he told them either. They both got to WALK and TALK with God, getting to know his character, and learning his instructions for life.
But the text doesn't actually say, so let's look at the rest of the Bible. Who does God speak to when he gives his instructions.
Exodus 6:6
Exodus 14:2
Exodus 27:20
Exodus 30:21
These are just a few of the examples of God speaking to "the children of Israel." He didn't call the men together and speak to them so they could tell their wives. He spoke to everyone.
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